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Noname1122: but, ooooh man, reading My Ishmael weirded me out a bit -- or rather -- hit home a lot; struck too true in a sick way
Noname1122: i think its not a good thing
Lilu2009: everyone needs to be scared and pushed to the edge once ina while
Lilu2009: how do you mean?
Noname1122: well, a large section is devoted to analyzing the school systems
Noname1122: like, you've studied feudal japan in middle school, right? (random example)
Lilu2009: mmm hmm
Noname1122: how much of that do you now?
Noname1122: if you were tested on the very same test you had then, how would you do?
Lilu2009: heh. I'd rather not answer that :-)
Noname1122: exactly
Noname1122: nothing
Noname1122: as the book puts it:
Noname1122: what people want to think is that school teaches
Noname1122: in all reality, it just eats up time;
its a brilliant way to take up time in what SEEMS to be honorable and worthwhile lessons
Noname1122: for example, when doing algebra, dividing fractions is easy
Noname1122: BUT, there's no need for them in the real world - dividing them, at least; you never divide a pizza into 3/4 slices.
Noname1122: the only use comes for types of engineers
Noname1122: however, the topic fits nicely and relevantly into a curriculum, so we learn it - because its there
Lilu2009: no need, no.. but I kinda agreed with the logic that without this kind of blunt and general education, we'd all be uninspired slugs
Noname1122: but, no one cares if we actually ABSORB and LEARN it -- its not even the point, really every one knows you wont -- feudal japan doesnt matter in real life
Noname1122: thus, the point of all elementary school is void even undergraduate college -- when will i EVER need multivariable calc in my real life?
it just fits nicely in
Noname1122: there's another point which the book expands on, and hypothesizes on, and i kinda bought
Noname1122: and weirded me out a few days
Lilu2009: ?
Noname1122: school's point is not to EDUCATE persay - thats just a respectable front
Noname1122: its simply. . . to keep the young off the job market
Noname1122: the REAL skills learned in school can be learned in simply living in the world
Noname1122: people will, on their own, drift into what they enjoy and learn more about it
thus - learn the things they WILL need to know
Lilu2009: true
Lilu2009: hmm, I can't think of a way to argue that
Noname1122: and no science or art has ever faded away for lack of people being interested -- theres always someone -- theres no danger of that
Noname1122: nothing would be left out by society as a whole -- only by individuals -- and theres no need for EVERYONE to know EVERYTHING
Noname1122: so, without school, if people (young especially) were free to intern/wander as they wanted, they'd actually get a MORE relevant and pertinent education
Lilu2009: because they wouldn't be bored and burnt out with useless school drigven knowledge
Noname1122: exactly
Lilu2009: very interesting point
Noname1122: you learn english as a child without school - because you need and WANT to -- it facilitates easier life
Noname1122: same with basic tools; same with navigation; same with a million basic things
Noname1122: if people were allowed to go to and learn what they wanted, as easy an education would continue
Lilu2009: so in my ishmael.. is it the same as the the original - a man and ishmael talking? or is it different
Noname1122: a girl and Ish talking
Noname1122: it's concurrent with the first (but was written later)
Noname1122: what it came down to was: school
a) keeps young off the job market, thus preserving its stability
b) organizes people more readily into blue/white collar jobs
Noname1122: its just a better method for organizing work order than, say, age -- i think I can put this better
Noname1122: if there were no school, and all learned by interning/watching, there would be no orgazational pattern, but age because no one wants to see, for example, their son become their BOSS in an office - or their little brother; just because he's more suited
Noname1122: thus, the young are disposed to low-level jobs DESPITE school education or ability, at first at least - until they enter the market more fully
Lilu2009: but do you think that being intelligent about things like feudal japan makes you an interesting or well-rounded individual
Noname1122: being well rounded comes naturally by being a part of the world
Noname1122: its school which forces you to take an unnatural major, that would force you otherwise
Lilu2009: but living your day to day life wouldn't teach you small pieces of history or science
Noname1122: no, but SOMEONE would know it
Noname1122: simply living freely in the world FORCES you to know enough about the world around you to survive/be intelligent
and, if it wasnt your thing, it wouldnt be you;
but, then again -- in that case, that wouldnt be a topic you'd want to discuss ANYWAY
Lilu2009: I don't know if I can agree completely since a lot of courses have inspired me to learn more - sure, I naturally gravitate towards music, art, culinary and pastry design, and that kind of thing... but I was inspired to leran more history through general courses, etc
Lilu2009: I wouldn't have known I wanted to know more about the renaissance had I not had the 7th grade course on it
Lilu2009: perhaps... but I won't know that obviously
Noname1122: thats (what i said before) another reason school itself does not really emphasize TEACHING no matter what your gpa or how well you learned things, when you enter, say, the restaurant industry. . .
you start at the bottom
Noname1122: and learn the higher positions while working there - on the job
Noname1122: learning them beforehand just wouldnt benefit you -- you'd be forced into the lower job anyway as a first applicant, where you'd be able to learn those things you (may have) gotten in school anyway
Noname1122: not only are you not expected to know the things beyond the day of the test -- doing so doesnt help you
Lilu2009: and what your saying is that school takes up time till you get to a decent workable age, primarily
Lilu2009: (er, what my ishmael says)
Noname1122: exactly -- or, better put, FORCES the work age to be later, because currently, if it were lower - there would be massive job loss and unemployment
Noname1122: unemployment rate would be crazy if people only learned things they actually LEARNED and then went into work
Noname1122: (im using "learned" to represent school's use of it -- learn and forget
im using "LEARNED" to represent actual, staying knowledge gain)
Lilu2009: why the joblessness?
Noname1122: the ages of even 15-18 represent MILLIONS of people
Noname1122: theres no room for them
Lilu2009: ah, so by simple numbers
Noname1122: yes
Noname1122: and, to more easily enforce the standard or elders in higher positions, despite ability
Noname1122: this makes too much sense to me
Lilu2009: kiiiiinda does
Noname1122: it seems to be the best, most honest, most reasonable explaination of why we dont learn crap in school that ive ever gotten
Noname1122: why K-8th is repetative and wasteful
Lilu2009: K-8th?
Noname1122: Kindergarten-8th grade
Noname1122: and why 9-16 grade is excessive and forgettable
Noname1122: and only trade schools and job training facilitate actual, useful learning
Lilu2009: thats a lot to wrap my mind around
Noname1122: seriously
Lilu2009: I should read this book
Lilu2009: I was inspired by ishmael, but nothing really shook me up
Lilu2009: but this sounds fascinating
Noname1122: same here
Noname1122: Ishmael interested me
Noname1122: this one shakes me, disturbs, and actually convinces me
Noname1122: i really believe this
Noname1122: and THAT is the part that really shakes me
that, if things were run differently, what i am doing now is such a waste
Lilu2009: a waste if you don't enjoy it
Lilu2009: (do you enjoy it?)
Noname1122: the only good it does to learn the content of ANY of my classes this semester, or any, is to earn a man-made meaning-assigned diploma
which has only a man-given meaning -- that i passed college and thus allowed myself into a white-collar job market Noname1122: no one beyond that point will EVER care if I use the knowledge I do or dont gain
Noname1122: some of the classes, i enjoy - others, i tolerate

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Phew

�

---Danny